New Attitude: How would you explain what the Summit is and what it does to someone who has never had contact with it?

Jeff Myers: Summit Ministries is a two week long camp where you’re going to study leader­ship and how to defend your faith in the real world.

Jeff Baldwin: The thing I’d like to stress is that Summit Ministries now has two arms. It’s a two prong ministry. It’s not just a camp any more; it’s also a resource ministry. We have the high school cur­riculum available for Christian schools and study groups. And we also have something of a research department so students can call and say “I don’t under­stand this issue. I need help responding to my professor.” We also have a book­store that will provide them with resources.

JM: We don’t just send kids off into the wild blue yonder with no back-up. Any front line in an army has to have a General and weapons so they can be effective.

NA: Explain the Summit’s interest in and work with home schoolers.

JM: We had our first group of home schoolers here about two years ago. When they came many of our faculty members weren’t really in favor of the home schooling movement. But after they saw those kids, they changed their minds. I remember the group distinctly: about half college students and half home-school students. And as far as maturity was concerned, you could hardly tell the differ­ence between the two.

The second thing that impressed us is that they would listen when we lectured without falling asleep or doodling or writing letters to their girlfriend. They actually were interested in the ideas. We concluded that among the leaders of the next generation a siz­able percentage would be home-school students. So if 1 percent of the kids right now are being home schooled, we’ll find they may be 10, 20, 30, 40 percent of the leaders. Of the good leaders.

NA: One of the ways you equip teens to defend their Christian faith is to help them understand opposing world views like Marxism, Secular Humanism, and the New Age move­ment. Some people don’t like the idea of studying what the enemy believes and teaches. Why is it important that we do?

JM: To extend the analogy of the General, a prudent General won’t send the troops into battle without giving them an understanding of the possible tactics that the enemy will use, what the enemy is likely to think, why they think that, how that translates into a battle­field strategy, and then how you counter them effectively. Obviously you can’t go too far with that. The General does not immerse his troops in the psy­chology of the enemy so much that they actually start thinking like the enemy. But he gives them an awareness and an understanding so that they can be effective against the enemy.

JB: The way I like to look at it is it’s the idea of cultural litera­cy. If you’re going to be a mis­sionary in France, you don’t just learn French. You learn about the culture of France so that you have a common ground with them. It’s the same concept with world view analysis. If we’re going to be missionaries, which we all are as Christians in our world, then we’ve got to have the cultural literacy to be able to dialogue with people.

NA: At the Summit you exam­ine Secular Humanism, Marxist/Leninism, The New Age movement, etc. Is there a particular movement or ide­ology that you view as the biggest enemy to Christianity?

JB: My answer’s not going to be satisfactory! In studying all the worldviews; in my opinion the most logically consistent and coherent world view outside of Christianity is Marxism. So in that sense, if someone is approaching it strictly logically, then I think Marxism is the most dangerous world view.

JM: I spend about one day a week on the college campuses, and I can see the strong influence of Marxism. People always think that I’m conspiracy-orient­ed when I say that, but that isn’t the case. Whether or not Marxism is dead in other parts of the world, Marxist social analysis is very much alive on the college campuses today.

NA: How do you see it?

JM: You see it on campus today with homosexuals versus everyone else, women versus men, the working class versus the ruling class. Anytime you try to simplify the world into two opposing forces you’re treading on ground that leads to Marxism. Because the whole Marxist idea is that all of life can be defined as this simple dialectic: one force against another force, they clash, and then somehow through that clash they form a synthesis and go on. So Marxists are always trying to find out who the dissatisfied people are and then pit them against those that they feel are satisfied. They always get a fight out of it.

JB: The whole Marxist goal is abolition of classes. That’s what Jeff is hinting at. And that’s becoming a very American thought on our university campuses.

JM: Here’s a good way to put that. The question is ‘What is just?’ and the answer that’s being given on campuses today is ‘What is just is what is fair.’ Well, who gets to determine what is fair?  Whoever has the strongest, loudest voice. Today if you can portray yourself as being more of a victim than everyone else, then you’re granted a louder voice. I’m convinced that the lack of personal responsibility in our country right now is leading to a crisis that makes Marxism one of the worst enemies that we have on campuses.

JB: But in terms of pragmatically the most dangerous, I’m thinking it’s the world view that’s incon­sistent and that says “There is a god, but he’s this fluffy grandfa­ther god that lives up in the clouds and looks out for us and everyone is going to heaven and life is happy.”

NA: Would that be categorized as New Age philosophy?

JM: It ties into the New Age movement, but it’s pretty perva­sive in the Christian community. I sometimes wonder whether an impotent, ineffective Christianity is more dangerous than another world view as an enemy to true Christianity.

NA: Many of the students com­ing to the Summit are college bound. Some are going to Christian colleges; other to sec­ular. What route do you think is the best: attacking head-on the pervading ideas of the world, jumping into the center of the fray at a secular school, or avoiding the clashes and studying in the protected “Christian-friendly” envi­ronment of a Christian college?

JB: The first distinction I want to make in the whole debate is that you talk as though going to a Christian college campus automatically gets you a Christian education wholeheartedly. I went to a Christian college campus and did not get a Christian worldview educa­tion.

JM: So did I.

JB: So did Jeff; that’s right. We both went to Christian schools, and we were in the midst of the battle. I honestly would say there are maybe 2 colleges we could feel good recommending as places you could get a Christian world view. And that’s Bryan College in Dayton, TN, and Hilisdale College in Hilisdale, MI.

JM: And Hillsdale isn’t even a Christian school! But you’ll get more of a biblical world view there than you will at most Christian schools.

JB: One more qualifier is God’s will. God’s will puts people where they’re supposed to be. We’re not going to give you a black and white answer where we say “You must go to a Christian col­lege.” or some­thing like that.

JM: I can tell you the perspective I’ve gained from being in both environments.

But let me state one foundational principle here. We tell students no matter where they’re going, even if they’re going to the colleges we recom­mend, they should go with their guard up. They should go ready to do battle, ready to take a stand for the biblical Christian worldview.

JB: I would echo that. C.S. Lewis said, “There’s no place this side of heaven you can safely lay the reins on the horse’s neck.” And it’s true. You have to be on your guard all the time.

NA: So what’s the difference between what you face on a Christian campus and a secular university?

JM: On a secular college campus when you take a stand it’s going to be obvious immediately that the forces there are already well aligned. You cannot sit on the fence at a secular school; you either fall off on one side or the other. If you’re leaning toward the secular side, you will fall off on that side. If you’re leaning toward the biblical side, chances are you will fall off on that side. If you let them, the other Christians there will grab you and pull you in.

Just yesterday I talked with a student who is now attending a Christian college but for one year attended a very liberal, secular universi­ty. And he said he thought it was easier to take a stand for his faith at the secular university than it was at the Christian college because he was forced to get off the fence at the secular university. At the Christian college he could stay on the fence all day long. He was not chal­lenged to commitment because he had a whole campus of Christians there. Why take a deep stand when you don’t really need to? There’s no one you have to witness to; there’s no one that you have to persuade that you’re right. It can tend to get lukewarm. On the other hand, Christian colleges often have well-known, dedicated professors in some areas. These people make great mentors. And of course, the opportunity for Christian service is great, as is the chance of getting into an action-com­mitted Bible study.

NA: What are the steps a student should take, whether he’s at a secular ~r Christian college, to make sure he gets pulled over to the right side of the fence?

JM: No matter where you go you’ve got about a six-week window of opportunity to get involved with the right groups, to make the right friends, and to find pro­fessors that can mentor you through your four years. And that can make or break you.

NA: And how does a person find out about good stu­dent groups and professors at dif­ferent colleges?

JM: Call us. We’ll tell you who we know at those schools.

NA: How do you think home schoolers will fit into the college campuses?

JB: I hope they don’t fit in! They’ve got to stand out. That’s the whole point. They should be different. We act in our society like it’s the worst thing to be condemned as a geek or a nerd. But if they’re nerds because they enjoy learning, and they’re nerds because they enjoy the concerts and the poetry readings and whatever else, I think that’s a terrific thing.

JM: We need more nerds! Ha! Ha! I’ve talked to a lot of college presidents about this very thing. Most of them tell me they cannot get enough home school students on their campus. They love home school students.

NA: In which areas or professions do you see the greatest need for Christians?

JM: Law. We need attorneys like crazy.

JB: But even more specifically I think it’s judges. The role of government according to the Bible is to promote jus­tice, to protect the innocent and to punish the guilty. If Christians are going to talk about America having a biblical government, which is a just government, then they need to be reclaiming our legal system as attorneys, but I think first as judges. I’m glad we had the same answer, Jeff. I wasn’t sure we were going to. My second part to that answer is in the arts. Culture tends to lead society. At least you can see where society is headed by the kind of culture that it tol­erates.

JM: Another need is for Christians will­ing to teach at the college level. We need professors. Why? Because the col­leges are the production facilities for ideas in the world. It’s been said that what’s taught in the classroom in one generation is believed and practiced in government and in society in the next generation. The reason I spend so much time on the college campuses is because of a very profound verse, Prov. 21:22 “The wise man scales the city of the mighty and tears down the stronghold in which they trust.” The “city of the mighty” in our culture is the college campus. As Dr. Noebel says, “As goes Harvard, so goes everything else.” Until we start getting Christians to inject a Christian worldview into that arena, we’re going to continue to lose the bat­tle of ideas.

The final occupation that I think transcends everything else is par­ents, male and female, committed to a strong family. Your occupation during your lifetime has temporal conse­quences. How you raise your family has eternal consequences. Not only for your own family but for the world.

NA: Are there any books that you’ve read recently that have been particu­larly inspirational to you?

JM: The book that has been inspira­tional to me lately is Abolition of Man by C.S. Lewis. It draws out the need to think critically. There’s a quote in there that says “A hard heart is no infallible protection against a soft head.” The idea behind it is that we can’t simply train ourselves well enough to become cyni­cal. We’ve got to truly understand what is beautiful and what is ugly, what is good and what is evil, what is righteous and what is unrighteous. And the more clearly we can draw those distinctions, the easier it will be to see a biblical Christian world view in every area.

NA: You mention becoming cynical toward other world views or on differ­ent issues. How do you respond to the person who equates the biblical Christian world view with conser­vatism or what some would call The Rush Limbaugh mentality? How much do we as Christians get into that men­tality?

JM: Well, Christ taught a balance between justice and mercy - I’m giving Jeff Baldwin’s answer right now! You must be just in the way you approach the world. But at the same time in order to reach the world you have to be merci­ful. I don’t know if Rush Limbaugh’s a Christian. I don’t think he is. Even if he is, he’s not going to be winning any converts. What he’s doing is briefing the troops. The benefit of Rush Limbaugh is that our kids are coming to the Summit better educated on issues from a conservative perspective than they ever have been in the past.

NA: Because of Rush Limbaugh?

JM: Right. Because of Rush Limbaugh.

JB: But never be a conservative first and a Christian second. The only rea­son you’re a conservative is because you’re a Christian.

NA: Jeff Baldwin, is there a particular book that affected you?

JB: The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer for me, definitely. Because it talks about costly grace: the idea that God grants us our salvation freely — It’s a grace given to us — but it’s a grace with a price tag. And that price tag is to serve God and our neighbors with all our hearts, souls, mind, and strength.

NA: Do you have any advice or encour­agement to the teen out there who has his entire life ahead of him or her? What’s your message to them?

JM: I’ll never forget the first time I ever repelled when I went rock climbing. I was terrified to lean back off the cliff and put my trust in the rope and the anchors to hold me. But I’ll never have the sense quite like the exhilaration that I experienced when I did it and found that the rope would hold me! And my message to this generation is trust God so that you can “lean back” over the threshold of what people normally do. To the extent that we live in our own strength, we can accomplish goals on earth that have temporal consequences. To the extent that we live in the strength of the Lord, what we accom­plish has eternal consequences. And that’s the distinction between talent and trust. Talent will accomplish things here on earth. Trust will accomplish things that are eternal.

JB: The only thing I would add to that would be the two Bible verses that we need to trust and understand most: Luke 9:23 and John 16:33. Luke 9:23 talks about denying yourself and picking up your cross. And if we learn what it means to die to ourselves, I think we’re halfway there. But the other half is John 16:33 where Christ says, “In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” When you die to yourself, you’re going to run into trouble. There’re going to be uncom­fortable situations to say the least, but Christ has overcome it all.

JM: You can stand up on the cliff all day long. You can say you trust the rope on your repel. But you never fully demon­strate the trust; you never experience the exhilaration of life until you lean back and put yourself totally in the hands of God.

New Attitude strongly encourages its readers to attend the Summit. The Understanding the Times curriculum, which includes videos, workbooks, and a teacher’s manual, is also excellent and can be used by a family or support group. For more information write:

Summit Ministries

P.O. Box 207

Manitou Springs, CO 80829

Or call: (719) 685-9103